"A fox got in amongst the hens last night, and ravished our best layer," remarked Miss Lanyon.Miss Venetia Lanyon, 25 years old, no one she knows gets her sense of humor and her only eligible suitor is "worthy" and a dead bore. Along comes "The Wicked Baron", Damarel. He's got a scandalous past, but he always laughs at her jokes, and never asks what she means by them. He doesn't expect her to have friendly feelings towards her late unlamented father. He respects her horse-mad, book-worm younger brother and doesn't treat him like he's made of glass just because he's got a short leg. So what's the problem? That's what Venetia would like to know... What did you think?
Tuesday, January 29, 2013
Venetia by Georgette Heyer
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I just had some fairly lengthy and possibly witty observations, but because I'm a gudgeon, I accidentally closed the tab.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, I didn't think I'd like the book, but I did! Sometime later perhaps I'll comment on cross-genre literature, the fabulous and unfamiliar language, compare/contrast with Downton Abbey, the themes of liberation and isolation. Also, OMG, the suitors and the busybodies!
I found myself experiencing great cognitive dissonance and having difficulty really getting into the book because to me, the language, tone, voice and the way the characters were portrayed just did not seem to fit the time period and culture where the story was supposed to be taking place. It felt to me like a modern voice trying to portray that time and culture, but was like eating Taco Bell in a fast-food store out of paper and plastic as opposed to a meal of authentic, traditional Mexican food served in a restaurant with an atmosphere and decor, dishes, etc straight from Mexico.
DeleteI didn't find the narrative voice or characters believable or particularly engaging. There were elements I liked to the story, but I think maybe I set myself up for disappointment by expecting it to be like something written by Jane Austen or contemporaries.
I guess I should clarify that it wasn't the specific details or historical accuracy of the settings, etc. that I had a problem with . . . I guess I just felt it was overdone and egaggerated. I think if I had felt the book was taking itself less seriously, like the Jeeves and Wooster series, I may have liked it better. I would have liked to see more internal conflict and roundedness to the characters, especially Venetia. She just seemed so utterly flippant about everything. I think I would have liked to see more internal struggle about the idea of joining her life to someone she believed would cheat on her, for example.
DeleteWas this book perhaps written as a parody, and I'm just not well-informed enough to readily recognize that?
I do know how to spell exaggerated, btw . . . Posting from my phone.
DeleteThough now I'm intrigued, I didn't read the book. :( Book club failure on my very first attempt. The local library didn't have it, and my stress level didn't allow for further investigation. BUT, I already have the next one checked out and will be ready to comment all over the place.
ReplyDeletePK -- that's interesting about the tone and voice, because this novel was actually written so long ago! I would not call ~ one century back all that "modern" in language.
ReplyDeleteBut getting past that, you are right about the author mocking then-modern traditions. The whole story is about this woman being so isolated, and thus having the freedom to break out of expected norms -- she actively rebelled against some of them, and subversively sought out ways that she could "pass" and live her life (without actually being forced into marriage to that pompous jerk).
I did not see Venetia as so shallow, even if her remarks were on the light side. This young woman was dealing with a lot, and for the most part, pretty rationally under the circumstances.
Some of the characters are so appalling! I mean -- Edward marches in and wants things his way? Yeah, buddy. But haven't we all known somebody or another who just felt he ruled the universe, and even if he "meant well," he was a jerk? Of course, he never listens when Venetia says, oh, thanks for the paper, but we aren't getting married. Why in the world would he presume to dictate what she can do, who she can see -- when she has been managing this estate since age 17 (8 years now)?
ReplyDeleteAnd despite her competence, it is her older brother who is the absent heir and master....
Edward says "you must allow that I know you better than you know yourself" so many times, I wondered that she could keep from slapping him
ReplyDeleteKathy A., you made me have to go look up details on the book's publication. :) The novel is set around 1818, but was written/published in 1958.
ReplyDeleteHaven't finished yet, but I too wondered how she could tolerate Edward.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am hoping that the older brother's new wife's mother gets booted out on her kiester.
--Neighbor Lady
Well, apologies PK! For some reason, I thought she wrote earlier in the century.
ReplyDeleteI was sure ready to slap Edward, and his hideous mother, too, when she appeared. Honestly -- he just bumbles around assuming he should be in charge. I gather that usually people let him.
I rather liked Aubrey -- poor kid, saddled with a disability that most do not even bother hiding their distaste about. And so brilliant. You just have to love Dameral for treating both Aubrey and Venetia like actual human beings. Nobody else is.
Oh, yeah -- Conway. What is up with him? Nobody really knows, because his appearance is in shadows; he's safely away being an important person, but he sends his bride and the MILfH back without any notice. It is rather delicious, the reception of the MILfH amongst the household staff. (This is where the Downton feeling got a bit strong.)
Nobody's spoken about the puppy yet, Oswald. That part is just too hilarious. He is not a rounded-out character, being a kid himself; but he just screams "my prefrontal cortex is not fully developed." Well, not exactly, but I'm speaking shorthand, as a modern mother who has raised teenagers. Oh, I can bring you a newspaper! I will kill him if he makes untoward advances! and yadda.
ReplyDeleteThen there is his mother, who is not so far off from Edward in thinking she has a duty to make Venetia play her part.
Also, dear lordy -- Ventia had these extremely dysfunctional and/or absent parents. (No spoilers yet.) Makes her independence and good nature look positively miraculous! Probably a very good thing she was not sent off to "come out" in the big city, where she would have been subjected to people like her aunt.
ReplyDeleteAnd, you know . . . the timing makes total sense to me. The book feels to me very much like someone with the attitudes and influence of the Roaring 20s trying to write a book that sets characters and attitudes from the author's own young adult years into a setting some 100 years earlier . . . the juxtaposition just seems very odd to me.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think that even if someone in 1818 had similar thoughts and feelings, it would be more . . . for lack of a better word, understated; like Austen's works. And they would probably experience more conflict about them, and frame them differently--it would be more new, and perhaps more rare, with more awareness of how very different it was from the backdrop of what was normal and expected in society; perhaps more tentative, and less likely to be framed flippantly or as if it was something obvious and natural. I think there would be more internal and external conflict about it than I see in the story.
I'm probably not explaining this very well, but I'll try. If I were to write a book that took place in an era where just wearing silk stockings or a calf-length dress was seen as scandalous and doing that would take great courage and willingness to buck society's accepted norms, putting the lead character wearing a bikini in public really wouldn't make sense. In that era wearing a split skirt in public would be more realistic, and would be comparable to the shock value and amount of counter-cultural gumption that wearing a skimpy bikini or going topless in a shopping mall today would have.
PK -- I responded to some of this below, but have been thinking over your sense that "even if someone in 1818 had similar thoughts and feelings, it would be more . . . for lack of a better word, understated; like Austen's works." One response is that relative isolation from society that Venetia enjoyed -- she was polite, but also aware on several occasions that she just spoke her mind, which was not (the reader is told) customary.
DeleteThere are so many expectations drilled into us, even today. But I think one point of the novel was to prod the reader -- to remind us that no, this is not the first generation that bucked the norms; and this is not the first generation where women felt sexual attraction; and this is not the first generation where there were women who cared more about thinking and friendship than about propriety and chaperones.
I got the feeling in the book that Venetia, her younger brother, Damerel, and quite a few other characters, viewed themselves as almost more normal and sensible, and society's norms as outdated and irrational. :)
ReplyDeleteI did find Oswald rather funny too, Kathy A.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that if she had been sent to "come out" in society as a young teen, Venetia would have turned out differently?
ReplyDeleteWell, Dameral treats Venetia and Aubrey like actual human beings except for the part where he is selfishly using people for his own pleasure with no thought for anyone but himself in large portions of the story. :)
ReplyDeleteThis is something very interesting to me about Venetia -- and important to the story. She could not have turned out the way she did if she had not been so very isolated from the conventions of polite society. I think she and other characters keep saying just that. It is the thing that Edward wants to dominate.
ReplyDeleteShe never went more than what, a few dozen miles at most from where she was born? She did not know her mother well, because when the parents were together, they mostly traveled, and the children were presumably left home. The the father's big funk, from when Venetia was 10 until the father died when she was about 22. No visitors allowed! No travel! No wonder Conway escaped as soon as he could.
So, she and Aubrey only knew a few local people. The Denny family, and Edward's family, and of course the servants -- who imparted a good deal more common sense than the neighbors. Plus, the tutors and the abundant books. Aubrey is painted as the bright one, but Venetia seems to have kept up with his esoteric studies, as well as keeping up the household and management of the estate.
I do not see Damerel using people as this story unfolds. It is certainly his reputation. And he does have his staff do this and that, but that part does not seem so strange for someone with an estate and staff; as a counter-point, he permits Aubrey's Nurse to boss everybody in his house.
ReplyDeleteVenetia was not doing the equivalent of going topless in the shopping mall. She was polite -- even when she was direct. What threw the Edwards off was that she did not accept some of the conventional wisdom: that she absolutely had to marry; that she had to have an escort even to go for a walk; that to be in the company of a man not her husband was a horrible thing.
ReplyDeleteThere are extra layers, too. Dameral was burdened with his (perhaps outsized) "reputation." And Venetia was burdened by the reputation of her mother, which nobody even told her about, but affected how she was treated.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the book a lot. The characters were allowed to evolve just enough so that when Damerel pushed Venetia away, I knew something had happened. It just wasn't like him.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised by how much I disliked Conway. Interesting for a character that never really "shows up."
kathy, I agree that Venetia would have been a very different person had she not been so isolated from polite society. Actually it's a bit dissonant to refer to the flurry of gossip and attempts at control going on around Venetia as "polite."
One thing kind of annoyed me. It was the author's use of the word "stoopid" - Gah!!!! Once or twice maybe, but it kept turning up over and over. I did a quick search of the words "stoopid" and "stupid" and nothing at all appeared for stoopid. It seems to be a made-up word. I think it bothered me because it stood out as a true mismatch to the rest of the language in the book.
On the other hand, I adored the word "nuncheon." Second breakfast anyone???
Yes, nuncheon!
DeleteThe word nuncheon is delicious. :)
DeleteHow careful do we need to be about spoilers? I can't say what I want to say without making at least vague references to things that might be considered spoilers at some level. :)
ReplyDeleteI think we should let NL get farther along...
ReplyDeleteNL, how far into the book are you?
ReplyDeleteOK, I edited my comment to take out spoilers . . . I'm assuming material in the very early chapters is fair game. :)
ReplyDeleteKathy A, I wasn't referring to those types of things. More the things like being mostly unphased and laughing off/brushing off any significance of things like assault, womanizing, infidelity, extreme flirtation in the absence of any expectation of serious relationship, etc . . . that, for a young woman from an extremely sheltered environment who was raised by someone like the nurse character seem very out of place to me for the time period.
The nurse was probably the primary person who raised Venetia, along with other household staff; and other influences in her life were at least for the most part conformative to general social norms.
I have great difficulty believing that, however isolated she was, she grew up completely ignorant of social norms and proper behavior. She knew that a man unexpectedly grabbing a woman out alone and attempting to kiss her and then not even really being apologetic about it, making it clear he would not hesitate to try that or worse again if he caught her alone again, etc. was not normal or acceptable. Even in the present day and age, most women would not react so equanimably to a complete stranger grabbing her and forcing himself on her, or the discovery that he was in the habit of doing this to women on a regular basis.
Can you picture Elizabeth or Jane Bennet, the Dashwood girls, or any of their acquaintances (with the possible exception of Lydia Bennet?) finding out Wickham's or Willoughby's true character, having one of them attempt to assault her as their first introduction, finding out he had already eloped with and/or impregnated girls and then abandoned them, and then just brushing it all off with a "boys will be boys; that's just the way men are, and I don't mind anyway" attitude? That's a large part of what I have a hard time finding believable.
Dameral at least started off by treating Venetia as a mere object for his own pleasure, certainly.
In the glimpses we got into his thought processes, I felt that many of the things Dameral did (especially early in the story) like his hospitality to Aubrey, allowing the nurse to hold sway, etc. either had ulterior motives or were basically the path of least resistance--an easy way to gain favor with Venetia or facilitate his own enjoyment (I think he really did enjoy Aubrey's company) at very little exertion or cost to himself. I didn't see them, or feel that the author was trying to present them, as real selfless concern for others.
I did very much enjoy the whole storyline about the SIL and MIL, and I found the household staff and the snapshots of below-stairs politics delightful. For the most part, the staff were the characters I found most likeable in the book.
Plus, just the sheer number of slang phrases, irreverent speech, playful insults and exclamation points. :) If that were more the minority of the dialog as opposed to the majority, I'd find it less grating and more realistic, I think.
ReplyDeletePK, at the time a young woman being "out" as Venetia was, would have made her instantly a proper person to gossip with, as Lady Denny does.
ReplyDeleteSince her father did not care at all about ensuring that the proprieties were maintained, it is not surprising that Venetia should think it all nonsense. And if you look at, say Pride and Prejudice, you can see that Lizzy at least, thinks nothing of walking several miles without an attendant with her, and she seems up on all the latest scandals. Now, she's not an heiress, as Venetia is, but it shows that it's not anachronistic for a young lady with an independent spirit to behave in the way that Venetia does.
That impetuous kiss was -- a surprise, but it did not frighten Venetia. She started speaking her mind right away, and Dameral behaved thereafter. It is clear that what he really admired and treasured about Venetia was her mind, her heart, their friendship.
ReplyDeleteWhile Dameral admits running off with a woman in the past, and that he was more or less a ladies' man, those escapades may have been exaggerated in the way that gossip often is. There is nothing to suggest his previous relationships were non-consensual. He denies having parented any children.
The "respectable" Edward, by contrast, is the one who seeks to control Venetia's every move and thought, and bend her to his will. He simply assumes he has that right, that his narrow views are unquestionably correct, and that Venetia is incapable of thinking for herself. She is a beautiful object which he intends to possess. When she says "no" -- repeatedly -- he believes she is kidding, and that she really must mean "yes," because he is such a grand specimen.
I responded to the comments about Dameral below . . . but I think your description of Edward here is perfect!
DeleteLol - Edward as a grand specimen! If the book were one of those old melodrama plays, I would have been hissing and booing every time he appeared. He was just so obnoxious with his sense of entitlement. Every time Venetia said "No" to him I was glad.
ReplyDeleteOswald on the other hand was just cute. His adoration of Venetia made me think of what it would be like if your best friend in high school had a little brother with a huge crush on you.
I think that's why I enjoyed the book so much. I could identify with the character's "character" and think of people I've known who were like that. It's all very....human.
I finished! Spoiler away as far as I am concerned! Sorry to slow you all down--I am enjoying reading the thread!
ReplyDelete--Neighbor Lady
I found Dameral quite interesting, and found myself thinking, as well, that his reputation had possibly been quite exaggerated. After all, when he ran off with the married woman, he was quite young himself, and she was older than him. One might ask who exactly was the corrupting influence? (Especially given her subsequent behavior, in which, the reader is led to suspect, his heart was actually broken when she then went on to have an affair with someone else.)
ReplyDeleteHaving gained the reputaion of a boor, and being gossiped about to no end, must have been quite frustrating, I would think.
I viewed much of his demeanor as a facade, intended to put off anyone who was shallow enough to be caught up in rumors and gossip, and let through anyone who was willing to know who he truly was.
--Neighbor Lady
Ooh, excellent point about the facade, NL!
ReplyDeleteOK, let's talk about Venetia's mother, who was supposedly dead, and *everybody* knew that was untrue, except Venetia. So, unbeknownst to her, people like Mrs. Denny and the disgusting Edward feel their meddling is somehow "saving" Venetia from a second-hand reputation that she does not even know she carries.
What is wrong with these people? This plot twist was actually shocking to me. I can see not explaining the sordid details to a 10 year old girl, but hiding it from a woman who has had responsibility for the estate for 8 years, since 17? Who is so obviously bright, educated, honest, sensible? She has to find out *by accident*???
Finding her mother was alive -- can you imagine a more emotional experience?
Yes, that was appalling. How could they expect to keep her from knowing that her mother was alive forever, or think that would be a good idea once she was an adult?
DeleteAnd then. Well, her mother cared no more about her own children than the father had. She was absent most of Venetia's first 10 years, and never sought her own children out in the next 15 years.
ReplyDeleteThe part that really brought home to me how awful Venetia's father was, was that she preferred her creepy ogling step-father to him.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering whether some of that was also an act to enrage Edward, which I would have greatly admired. (OOOooooooh that Edward, made my blood boil!) I don't remember the ogling happening quite so strongly when she was with him alone, vs. when she was with him and had run into Edward. But then again, I was reading pretty quickly at that point last night trying to finish......
ReplyDeleteBy the way, what is a Prince Regent? (actually, in this age of go0gle, maybe I'll just go find out....)
:)
--Neighbor Lady
NL, I agree that the stepfather was deliberately trying to put Edward off.
DeleteStill, the stepfather was a little oily and creepy. Insisting on giving her jewelry seemed bizarre: too generous a gift, and yet in no way could that make up for her mother's abandonment.
I think some of it was an act too, but I thought he was ogling even before Edward came on the scene . . . the stepfather was totally creepy, IMHO.
DeleteThe Prince Regent was King George's son, who acted as ruler of England when George was considered too mentally unfit to rule anymore. He served as Regent until his father's death, and then became King.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Liz!!
ReplyDelete:) Neighbor lady
I'm taking another run through the book, during those times when insomnia strikes. (As it does every night.)
ReplyDeleteNone other than Nurse concluded that Dameral's reputation was likely exaggerated; and she believed that the older married woman he ran off with had seduced him, taking advantage of his youthful inexperience, before running off with someone else. Quite a change of tune; Nurse had very strong opinions about his evilness before Aubrey's accident, based on the rumors. She remarks to herself that it was more appropriate to judge on what she saw before her (or something like that).
Although Nurse regards both Venetia and her underage brother as "children," she sees Dameral as another adult, like herself. She knows as well as anyone how constricted their lives have been; there are in fact no other adults who take the time and share Venetia and Aubrey's interests. There is a lovely portrait of Aubrey on the couch, Venetia sitting beside on the floor, Dameral behind the couch -- all of them looking at a sketchbook and talking about Greece.
The siblings -- who have never gone anywhere -- are so fascinated. Their minds and imaginations are soaring, even if their circumstances have left them tethered to the estate.
I love that scene. I also love Venetia's commonsensical statement of what Dameral's father _should_ have done when Dameral was 22 and stupid.
ReplyDeleteWhat did she say? I forgot.
Delete"...and I do hope your next mistress was entertaining as well as pretty!...What a fortunate escape you had, to be sure! I daresay it may not have occurred to you, but I have little doubt that by this time Lady Sophia has grown sadly fat. They do, you know, little plump women!...What's more, if your father had warned you of it, instead of behaving in a very foolish and extravagent way, exactly like a Shakespearean father, it would have been very much more to the purpose!"
DeleteOh, that. Being a short and excessively plump woman of a certain age, I thought this was a rather bitchy comment.
DeleteAlthough as a mom of adult children, I agree with not paying for the rock star life.
Look at Oswald -- he went on to Venetia about how they would take a 3 year world-tour honeymoon! And, it is pretty clear that was not going to be covered by his allowance.
I am also a little plump woman, but I liked it nonetheless because it focused on his escape rather than on Lady Sophia's dumping him.
ReplyDeleteYes, there is that.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't think you are plump -- not in the sense of "I'm sure I used to have a waistline..."
Oh, Kathy, that's a mirage caused by my skinny arms and the over-hanging balcony.
ReplyDeleteThe escape -- that really is a good point, no? I always think of one bad relationship that way, although in the moment I was bereft for being dumped. But the thing never would have worked out, and he was -- objectively, because of all his behavior -- a complete self-absorbed self-promoting jerk.
ReplyDeleteI really like Venetia because -- although nobody was ever telling her she was fabulous (except on those occasions someone was able to see her, and tell her she was very pretty), and nobody was supporting any vision of herself as talented -- she just carried on and made it happen. Her parents abandoned her; the older brother fled; she had almost no company, excepting the panting and/or judgmental near neighbors. But she read everything; she managed the estate and its employees; she had a caring heart and wide-ranging mind.
Venetia was nearly as much an outcast as Demaral. And I think their friendship worked because they understood each other as outsiders -- and they allowed one another to be more fully human. She could speak her mind with him; he could use his caring and thoughtfulness, instead of putting on a show.
Or perhaps Venetia's own words apply to herself as well as to Damerel,
Delete"...I'm not so green that I don't recognize in you one virtue at least, and one quality...
"A well-informed mind, and a great deal of kindness."
Yes, they really did have a lot in common, even if nobody else (except perhaps Aubrey and to some extent Nurse) recognized that.
DeleteI do not read romances; can't stand sappy sentimentalism, or love at first sight fantasies. Puppy love, gah. The culture of conventional beauty; devotion to social status. Maybe this book's rejection of those hit a chord.
ReplyDeleteSo, let's slice and dice Edward a little more. He deserves it, doesn't he?
How could he have been so confident that he had redeeming features? He did not care for books; was instantly condemning, and did not think things through; all he had going for him was an intensely boring and grating social acceptability -- and that was not built on anything so deep as his own personality, only that he owned a bunch of property and had never done anything even mildly interesting in his entire life. (Am I missing something?)
Nope.
ReplyDeleteHe was a good manager, a good son to his mother, a "good catch" in terms of material wealth, and solidly respectable.
Basically, he's Mr. Collins (from Pride and Prejudice), with more money and without the silliness.
I gather that Edward did not think he needed more to capture Venetia; she was semi-damaged goods anyway, because of her mother, and he expected she would not get any other offers, because she saw basically nobody. And from his point of view, her liveliness was something to entertain him. He fully expected to dominate that; and told her so.
ReplyDeleteWhy would Venetia want to sleep with that lump of coal for the rest of her life? I mean -- people might change over time, but he was not ever going to turn into a prince.
I think that's what creeps me out, more than the ogling stepfather or anything else. Edward thought he'd proffer his respectability in return for her body (and presumably, her soul). It never once occurred to him that this was anything but a fair trade.
He wished to purchase her, in other words.
DeleteThat about sums it up.
DeleteYes, that is Edward in a nutshell.
DeleteI think Edward to the level he was capable of it would have at least thought that he truly cared for Venetia. But he did not understand her, and did not like her true self . . . he thought that what he wanted her to be, was her true self; and that what she really was, was a misunderstanding or misinterpretation. He wanted to change her, to mold her into what HE thought she should be.
DeleteHe neither respected nor appreciated her as she really was. And he insisted on treating her like a child, and believing that his own perception of the world and everything in it was the only possible right perception. He, also, did not respect Venetia's "no" or treat her as an equal or a human being.
I don't think she ever would have been happy with him, or he with her.
I just do not see Edward as capable of really caring about or connecting with anyone but his own self. We do not hear of any other relationships -- friendships, business interests, hobbies, etc. -- except his mother, and less-than-warm acquaintances with the neighbors. He seems to have nothing else going on besides stalking Venetia.
DeleteEdward is proud of not being a scholar; his reading material is the newspaper, and what interests him is frivolous stuff like royal gossip. References to literature fly right past him. So, he is missing an entire universe that might have allowed him to think of others, to think of being in situations other than his own, to connect with others on larger issues.
Edward does not travel much; it sounds like the trip to London was pressing the edges of the envelope for him. So, he does not have or wish for experience in different places, with different people. (As constricted as Venetia and Aubrey are, they dream of going places and doing things.)
Venetia was his interest and his one friend. I assume he was trying, but it was not in him to consider *anything* from her point of view. Instead, he endeavored to instruct her on what her point of view should be, which happened to exactly match his personal point of view.
If one cannot even recognize the personal autonomy of others, it is hard for me to classify feelings about the other as "caring."
I had to go back and re-read that first scene with Damerell again, to make sure I was reading the same thing the rest of you were. :)
ReplyDeleteThe book makes it VERY clear that the kiss was an unwanted assault.
"Before she had recovered from her astonishment at being addressed in such a style he had an arm round her, and with his free hand had pushed back her sunbonnet. In more anger than fright she tried to thrust him away, uttering a furious protest. He paid no heed at all; only his arm tightened round her, something that was not boredom gleamed in his eyes, and he ejaculated, 'But beauty's self she is . . . !'
"Venetia then found herself being ruthlessly kissed. Her cheeks much flushed, her eyes blazing, she fought strenuously to break free from a stronger hold than she had ever known, but her efforts only made Damerel laugh, and she owed her deliverance to Flurry. The spaniel, emerging from the undergrowth to find his mistress struggling in in the arms of a stranger, was cast into great mental perturbation . . . "
The book states several times that she is angry at this, and comments a few paragraphs later, "Your quotations don't make your advances a whit more acceptable to me--and they don't deceive me into thinking you anything but a pestilent, complete knave!"
A few paragraphs later:
"'Who are you?' He demanded abruptly, 'I took you for a village maiden--probably one of my tenants.'"
If she had been one of his tenants, this would put him in a position of power with the ability to evict her from her home if she resisted him or put up a stink--IMHO making his behavior even worse.
To paraphrase something a friend said to me recently, this is not the behavior of a nice man who is treating a woman like a human being. I just can't get past it to trust his character and motives in the rest of the story. I think the author's comments make it quite clear that he is very intentionally and selfishly "playing" her, and flirting with her for his own enjoyment and amusement, at least his moment of truth where he realizes that he's not going to be able to lightly walk away as he had originally planned. Eventually he does decide to make a less selfish choice, and appears to be more genuinely in love with her than he has experienced in his life before. But I have a hard time trusting that he won't resert to pure selfish behavior and treating her as a mere plaything if (when) the relationship becomes difficult and the novelty and warm fuzzy emotions are no longer there, in a few years.
Not, of course, that Edward or any of the others are great guys either. :)
Then you have the whole internal dialogue where Venetia is thinking that of course she didn't want to be forcibly kissed, but, wow! Some part of her wanted to respond, and how exciting and appealing it was, and all that . . . ugh!!!
What bothers me about this and so many other books and movies, is that our culture has this habit of telling and enjoying stories in which behavior that would in real life be described in terms like assault, stalking, sexual harrassment, etc. is presented as sweet and romantic, that women secretly want to be physically and/or emotionally overpowered by a man's strength and persistence over her objections, and that if a girl doesn't initially welcome a guy's advances he just needs to force her, or be persistent enough, and she'll fall in love with him. I think the fact that we tell and enjoy so many stories with that message really does a lot to promote a "rape culture" or a "women don't really mean no when they think they do" mentality.
That should say, "At least until his moment of truth . . . "
DeleteOh, and another thing that really bothered me was the whole theme of, "Men can't possibly be expected to control their sexual urges or actions, because, after all, they're men, and they simply CAN'T, poor widdle things. We women just simply can't understand it because we're not men, and they're so different from us. They are completely unable to control themselves when they see a pretty face. We shouldn't hold it against them--just be grateful if they act polite and affectionate to us on the surface, when they're home."
DeleteI wonder if that's a common theme in the author's works, and if so, what her own experiences with men were like.
I've read all her books, and she doesn't have that as a theme in most of them. Some of them, yes.
DeleteWhat did you all think of Aubrey, and the relationship between him and Venetia?
ReplyDeleteThank you PK, for clarifying something for me. Venetia is surrounded by people, and particularly men, who barge into and take over her life without asking. In that context, Damerel's assault on her has been the LEAST invasive attack of any she's experienced so far. His kiss was unwelcome, and an invasion - true. But far less invasive and unwelcome than Edward's forcing himself into her house and her mealtimes; far less invasive than Conway's leaving his affairs in her hands and then forcing his wife and her mother on her; far less invasive than her father's behavior to her at all times. And at least Damerel appreciates her mind, her personality, and her sense of the ridiculous...which no one other than Aubrey does (and Aubrey doesn't appreciate her mind!)
ReplyDeleteI would agree with you that there doesn't seem to be a single male character, except maybe the staff, that doesn't just barge into her life, invade and disrespect her in some way, or at least just selfishly expect her to exist for their benefit.
DeleteNo, the staff don't intrude. But they make their thoughts clear! Nurse is plain bossy with everyone. The housekeeper and other staff let Venetia know very quickly about the impossibility of the MILfH.
DeleteBut these are working relationships that they and Venetia have built over many years. She is involved with the details -- in the stables, with the ability of staff to fix rooms and meals for guests with no notice, and she is even out rescuing the kittens of the missing kitchen cat when Oswald corners her in the carpentry barn.
She is making all of these decisions, and sometimes ones that staff might not make -- but she has enough sense to listen to what they are saying, and to consider both upstairs and downstairs. Virtually none of the upper-crust characters give her any credit for all that -- even the ones (her father and Conway) who are relieved to dump the burdens on her. Aubrey has some appreciation, although he is only 17 and does not expect to inherit, so he does not devote attention to the details.
I think Aubrey is a character that is mostly there to show Venetia that she's not alone in her assessments of the other people in her life. He's not a perfect companion, either, but up until she gets to know Damerel, he's the person she enjoys being with most of all the people she knows...and the feeling is mutual, but he enjoys being with his books more than being with her, and she knows it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Liz, about Dameral.
ReplyDeleteBut, I also see where PK is coming from too. I think the reason the whole first assault didn't sour me on Dameral was because it seemed so weird and out of character almost immediately by the time we next came upon him. After that encounter, he just doesn't seem like the kind of man who *would* do something like that.
I think the author perhaps could have had a first encounter with him without the forced kiss, in which he would have still come off as a "rake" , and which would have been more in keeping with the rest of the story.
Still, it is something to ponder...
-Neighbor lady
I think it would have better fit the rest of the story if the author had chosen a different way to show that, too. It definitely colored my perceptions of him for the rest of the story, though . . . especially in combination worth things like the author's description of his thoughts and motives . . . Basically that he was using his skills to play Venetia.
DeleteI saw even the nurse's liking him more as his skillful manipulation of people than as evidence of his good character. He played people as though they were instruments and he a skilled musician. He could just about get anyone to do anything, and think it was their own idea.
I do think he genuinely had an appreciation for a fine mind and a sense of humor, though.
The kiss seemed weird for his character (although not his reputation), almost as soon as it was over. During that encounter, they started talking. And he realized immediately -- although in a a horribly awkward way, with that comment about who was she? -- that she was an interesting person.
DeleteI guess I wrote that action off for a few reasons. One is that he was never so untoward again; the friendship quickly became too important. Another is that Venetia was not upset, and blew right on past that.
And, I think there are times in all our lives when we do something that in retrospect was shameful. When we do that, the only real choice is to move forward and not make that mistake again. Damerel was capable of not making that mistake again.
Edward, by contrast, was not capable of seeing a mistake, much less changing his behavior. No, he did not ever grab Venetia in the garden and kiss her without permission. But he trudged on and on, just assuming he was entitled to barge in and boss her, and that he would own her.
Aubrey has such horrible burdens -- the abandonment and isolation that Venetia also experienced, but people are also horrified by his disability (except presumably his tutor, the priest). His own mother abandoned them shortly after his birth, and mentions how awful it was to have a damaged baby. Good old Edward ignores Aubrey's mind and humanity, and feels he has the right to make decisions for Aubrey as well as Venetia. Damerel takes time with Aubrey, and refuses to "wrap him in cotton wool," a new experience.
ReplyDeleteI agree with NL about that first kiss. But you are right, PK, that it was jarring to read.
ReplyDeleteHe did not know the neighbors and did not intend to stay. It seems to me he may have been playing the part of his reputation, which he knew was bad.
In any event, Aubrey (like Nurse) feels that Damerel's reputation had been exaggerated. Somewhere near the time the dreadful MILfH shows up, Aubrey asks if Venetia will marry Damerel, which startles her -- she has not thought about it -- but Aubrey thinks such an arrangement would be fine.
Of course, Aubrey had a selfish motive -- he would prefer to take vacations from university away from Conway and his new family.
So, what do you think the deal is with Conway? I wondered if MILfH just decided to barge on in, expecting no one could confirm the marriage for a while; although obviously that ruse would be discovered. (And I think there was some communication from Conway later.)
ReplyDeleteIt sounded like they got married awfully quickly! Perhaps he regretted acting so fast? It is hard to imagine a good excuse for not even telling his sibs about the wedding, much less that he was sending The Witch and her well-dominated daughter.
The MILfH is quite a character, though! Hardly in the door before she is announcing plans to redecorate, hire and fire staff, change the cook's recipes, etc. Can't you feel everyone bristling?!
ReplyDeleteVenetia was, of course, gracious in the face of disaster. And, it was she who had the legal authority to make management decisions in Conway's (long and continuing) absence. MILfH badly misjudged how her overbearing entrance would go -- not just because she behaved boorishly, but because she was obviously unfamiliar with the responsibilities attending to the running of a large estate, or that someone else necessarily had the legal authority.
This is also really strange: Conway had evidently been away since before their father died. The lawyer "sent" him the power of attorney papers. Venetia had already been running the place for 5 years, but with her father's permission. Chaos would have ensued if nobody had authority. Conway was all too glad to dump all that on his sister, while he gallivanted overseas. (I find it hard to believe he was directly involved in warfare, being a wealthy gentleman. But the war provided a nice excuse to be away.)
The whole Conway thing is so weird. It seems that with her being pregnant, the need to marry was there. Perhaps he had never met his mother-in-law until it was too late? ha ha
ReplyDelete(I can't remember if they addressed that in the book)
Also, I wonder if he was old enough to have understood everything that happened with his mother leaving?
--Neighbor Lady
I also wondered about just how far along that pregnancy was, and whether it was something of a shotgun marriage. Or, a spontaneous Vegas-style marriage (in Paris?). I could definitely see MILfH having a hand in moving the deal swiftly to conclusion, her mind on piles of money and acres of land.
DeleteI thought there was some comment along the line that a shotgun marriage was their initial suspicion, but the due date lined up with the pregnancy happening after the wedding? That the MIL had pushed to "secure him quickly" as a character from another book would say. :)
DeleteAh, but how exact were due dates in the early 1800's? How reliable would MILfH's report be? This story ended before the blessed event, so we will never know.
DeleteI remember that in the 1950's and 1960's, some babies were reportedly born prematurely, but with normal birthweights. Like, my friend (1959), and our next-door neighbor had a rather hasty wedding and "early" baby (1967). I was barely respectable, born 9.5 months after the wedding.
This MILfH, however, would have thought a wedding on the second date was prudent. I can picture her laying in the libations, inviting a minister to dinner. ;)
DeleteConway and SIL got married in July, and SIL was not visibly "increasing" as it were in November, baby due in May.
DeleteIt's pretty clear that Conway is a coward, and didn't want to tell anyone in a letter, because he finds it hard to write in the first place, and so would have found it difficult to explain exactly what happened.
Conway would have been about 7 when the mother left, I think. Venetia was 10 -- but she had such vague memories of their mother, because the parents traveled a lot. There were no photos at that time, and the portrait of the mother was removed after her "death" -- explaining why she could not place the familiar-looking woman when she saw her.
ReplyDeleteToward the end, it came out that Conway had been told about their mother. I think Aubrey even knew more than Venetia; but for some reason, nobody talked about it with her. According to Edward, there was a deliberate effort to keep Venetia from knowing, even though everybody else knew. (Which is a heck of an insult.)
One very funny set of passages: when the SIL is speaking to Venetia alone, and she recites this whole series of people who got into spats with her mother. It sounded like they had run through a number of relatives' households by the time they decamped to Conway's estate.
ReplyDelete